On men, women’s lib and the misunderstood Top

15Apr12

Top spankingYears ago while in a college bar at a Northern England university, a woman got up and left and soon as yours truly sat at the same table where a friend was sitting.

“What’s her problem? She doesn’t seem to like you.” The friend said.

“I have no idea,” was the only possible reply. Having never seen the girl, it was a mystery

As the weeks past it became obvious that several people, especially women who had never previously shown an interest, tended to start conversations. At the same time women who had previously been happy to talk tended to emulate the aforementioned girl and flee on approach.

Then one day after spanking a girlfriend in the room of the hall of residence, a not unusual occurrence in those days, the girl was left to nurse a sore bottom while yours truly went to the kitchen to make tea. It happened that the girl in the next room chose this moment to come out and the look she gave left no doubt that she had heard what had happened.

A few days later the same neighbour was out on the campus selling a left-wing newspaper, so it seemed diplomatic to buy one.

“Oh, I had no idea that you were into left politics,” she accused.

“Why wouldn’t I be?” In actual fact it was a little too left for taste, but what did that have to do with anything?

“You know, seeing as you…” She blushed and didn’t finish her sentence.

One gathers that she associated a man who spanked his girlfriend with someone who was right-wing and presumably supported all that that entailed.

In actual fact there is no incompatibility with having a spanking sexuality and any particular brand of politics, any more than there is a link between being gay or straight and being of a particular political persuasion.

In actual fact, like many young men back in the 1980s, it was quite a struggle to come to support progressive ideas on women and yet cope with the incessant propaganda that ‘all men were…” variously aggressive; rapists or… well fill in your own negative!

Nonetheless, the girl’s attitude revealed that certain proclivities were no longer secret on campus and went a long way to explain some people’s attitude. Although it has to be said that most people, left or right, did not care.

In the years that followed the world has lightened up a bit and it is usually possible to make a joke when confronted with overzealous feminist agitation. Although it has to be said that empirically speaking this is truer on the European side of the pond than the other.

Once while corresponding with an American young lady, the subject of the dichotomy between women’s liberation and a woman’s need to be submissive came up.

Now there should be no conflict, as surely it is a woman’s right to choose whether to be submissive or not. After all who in the 20th century would argue for male political supremacy, who but a fool would want it?

However, that was not what was said to this woman, instead she was treated to the quip, “There is nothing wrong with women’s lib, so long as the dinner is on the table when the man get’s home.”

It is fair enough to say that it was a bad joke and it fell flat, but to take it seriously is somewhat astonishing. Needless to say the woman never entered into correspondence again.

As the years go by, one tends to be more cautious about revealing one’s sexuality, which may be a sign of growing cowardice or a sign of the times. Although there seems to be no shortage of 20-somethings sharing their proclivities with the world via Facebook and Twitter; one hopes they do not live to regret their lack of caution.

One recent sign that the attitudes of the 1980s may be returning was an account of a young man being ‘flamed’ on a vanilla forum for expressing pro male top views. One cannot help feeling that if a woman had announced that she was an active submissive, she might have been praised for being sexually liberated. Let’s hope at least that this is true.

Elsewhere it was said, that being a female submissive is acceptable only if she is submitting to another woman. Is this hetrophobia or just ill-thought out vanillaism?

What do all the female submissives out there think? And feel free to ask your top if you are not sure.



29 Responses to “On men, women’s lib and the misunderstood Top”

  1. 1 Karl Friedrich Gauss

    I think a lot of women harbor resentment or anger towards men in general and, in their view, men who spank women must seem like Neolithic throwbacks. Either that, or they’re, on some level, jealous, and want some of that kind of “tough love” for themselves. Yes, I think that must be the explanation, once one gets under the surface of things.

  2. 2 Karl Friedrich Gauss

    Oh, and great minds must think alike. Bonnie’s theme for today’s brunch is Feminism and Submission: http://innocentindy.wordpress.com/2012/04/14/bonnies-spanko-brunch-feminism-submission/

  3. I hope that the last sentence of your post was a joke. Of course I can think and I don’t need Daddy to tell me what to think about feminism and all that it entails.

    Since Bonnie just posted a similar topic, I’m just going to cut and paste my comment on her blog.

    “This may be politically incorrect but I don’t identify myself as a feminist. I believe that the feminism movement has been hijacked by left leaning political groups, in order to advance an agenda that isn’t ultimately in anybody’s best interest.

    I agree with the big ideas of feminism, such as equal pay for equal work, the right to vote, and that women shouldn’t be second class citizens, but the solution to these problems is not found in government provided childcare, government mandated birth control, and other nanny state programs.

    I’m a strong woman and I choose to stay home and raise my children, which I believe is the most important job.

    It really angered me when feminist Hilary Rosen had the audacity to insult all stay at home mothers when she said that Ann Romney hadn’t worked a day in her life (she stayed home to raise 5 sons).

    As a stay at home mom, raising and homeschooling 8 children,I know first hand what a ridiculous assertion that was.

    As a strong, independent woman I don’t see a conflict with my private act of submission(getting spanked) to “Daddy”, the man I love.”

    Kitty

  4. 4 Princess Anatasia

    You’re closing sentence still has me laughing, something far too many feminists appear not to know how to do unless the laughter is aimed at men.Keep up the good work. — on every hand.

  5. 5 Mark

    I have had considerable experience of the man hating self described feminist.

    One was a judge, in a sex abuse case, who was led to make an outburst about how all men are rapists merely awaiting an opportunity. That transcript and a few others led her too seek other employment.

    I told that story to others, and got similar stories in return. Even my daughter has such a story from her experience at college last year.

    Some women are just messed up. It isn’t age, it’s something wrong with them. Fortunately, there are far more far better women to enjoy as company and in every other way. Enough of them enjoy spanking fun too.

    • 6 DJ

      Mark,

      sorry to hear that but there are plenty of messed up men as well.

      • I remember a Judge James Pickles describing a rape victim of under ten (I think she was six years old) as “not entirely an angel herself.” in other words she deserved her plight and had tempted her poor rapist into action.
        Some people should not be judges, it has nothing to do with their gender- it is their humanity that is at fault. We should not judge others of their sex based on the mad ramblings of an individual.

      • 8 Mark

        Poppy is right. In my practice as an attorney, I’d say I saw more men than women who were just not right in their adjustment towards matters sexual and in relationships, as defendants, as lawyers, and as judges. I can’t say what would be representative proportions between men and women, because the legal system is not at all representative of the population.

      • 9 Mark

        But in fairness, the topic of the moment was feminists with strange attitudes. If we widen it out to maladjusted individuals, we’ll be at it all day.

    • 10 quinn664

      That is amazing! I’ve heard that same “judge” story for years. Not only attributed to judges, but high school teachers, professors, and psychiatrists, among others.

      I’m not sure what that means….. perhaps I should go ask my Top. Maybe he can explain it in simple terms my poor little brain will understand.

  6. 11 DJ

    So much to say and so little time.

    I hoped to get people thinking with my short annecdotes; I also hope that I haven’t given the impression that I think all feminists have no sense of humor and are out to get men.

    Kitty you said “I hope your last sentance was a joke” – Lol – yes very droll. You wouldn’t be American by any chance. 😉

    Karl – I am not sure I agree but I can imagine it might be true for some – lets face it, some women have a lot to be angry about.

    Poppy – I agree with almost everything you are saying

    Princess – so gracious – many thanks.

    🙂

    • You didn’t get me thinking, DJ. You just got me riled. Some of us are forced to “think” about this every day.

      But maybe our fit was all you were after?

      • 13 DJ

        I am glad you are riled – perhaps you should be. I wasn’t trying to get people (some men it seems) thinking about the ball they seem to have run with. Hence my second post.

        I can’t help thinking you are angry with the responses to my post rather than the post itself.

        Unless you missed the (deliberate) irony of the last line.

        I do sense a UK/US dichotomy in this regard, which on reflection is perhaps understandable. Again see my second post.

        I’m sorry if it was me who offended you but to follow your lead – I think we are all forced to think about this everyday – especially given the unfolding events in the US.

        DJ 😐

  7. 14 Karl Friedrich Gauss

    I seem to recall I got that information about women in general from the guy who teaches the ancient Hawaiian art of Ho’oponopono, via the book “Zero Limits”. His name is Ihaleakala Hew Len. This is a form of healing in which you as an individual take responsibility for everything that happens to you or which happens in your world. Well, his a somewhat updated version of it. Anyway, I got the observation from his, not so much from my own observation. And, as you suggest, it may not be correct. And as you suggest further, there ARE men who don’t respect women but simply use them in one way or another.

    • A fascinating theory, we are responsible for what someone does to us rather than what we do to others- if Ihaleakala Hew Len has been going around saying that it is no great mystery that he has met a lot of angry women. 🙂
      He should go to rape crisis centres, Chinese orphanages filled with little girls, to the women that have been captured and gang raped during various wars and to the graves of the victims of “honour” killings and let all those women and children know it was all their fault. to be fair, that is what the misogynists have been saying all along. According to his theory women have a lot to take responsibility for – they should hurry before of them get killed, covered in acid, raped or abused. Silly girls.

  8. DJ, you’ve certainly inspired a lot of discussion with this post. Here a few things that come to mind for me: I did come of age (teen years) in the seventies, and began my working life as a young woman in the eighties. I was heavily influenced by the feminism of the time. Never, though, did I think of men as overly aggressive. I believe that the larger culture has a role to play, but when it comes right down to it , it is not as important as the world we inhabit on a daily basis in terms of creating our attitudes.

    I have always found men to be caring, concerned about me and my safety, important mentors in the early years of my career, and good friends. I look back with a great deal of humor at the kinds of things men said to me in those early years–today they would be considered sexual harrassment–but I never felt that way. I learned to laugh with them and keep them at a distance with friendliness and humor. I suppose in many ways I have lived a sheltered and protected life, and that continues til today, as the men I interact with are educated and gentlemanly.

    Regarding the political situation in America: most of it is posturing in an election year, tied to the Republican’s need for support from the Evangelicals. I don’t honestly expect any of the nonsense being spouted today to become law in this century, and if it looks like it’s going that way, then women in America will certainly stand up for themselves. It’s ridiculous and most women I know are appalled by it.

    I do see a very big turnback in attitude from today’s young women. I have gone through the process of feeling distressed over it, but I think much of it is the inevitable swing of the pendulum back to finding a center point that makes sense. Girls growing up today have been raised by women who were not there for some of the more important parts of their childhood, and when they were there, were exhausted and stressed and pulled in a lot of different directions. (Once again, that depends on where you live. America is huge, and there are huge differences in attitudes and life styles. In my community, many women stayed home with their children and were able to enjoy the fruits of their husband’s labor in affluence. That colors their attitudes by a lot.)

    And what all this has to do with submission is very much an individual matter. I think I’ve always been wired this way, and I fought it for years in order to fit the person I thought I was supposed to be: a strongly feminist woman who was independent. That brought me in equal measure both achievement and pain, but it made marriage (mine) a little tougher maybe than it had to be.

    • 17 DJ

      You have had a lot say and I haven’t replied. Sorry.

      I think one’s point of view depends on a) one’s gender b) one’s experience and c) where one lives.

      The problem is that unless you write an in depth essay, which would be out of place here, any passing references carry a meaning for some that were never thought of or intended by another (let alone the writer).

      In hindsight it was an unfortunate title as the thrust of the piece was not intended to be about feminism per se at all.

      This post has thrown up all kinds of ironies, not least for me my own poor or badly expressed thinking on this (being my) subject. Although, also ironically I sense an undercurrent – both anti and pro that takes me back to the days that you speak of.

      Not to respond to you directly but in general observation – are we not united across the genders in the face of injustice – with equal but different views that enable us to learn? Or shall half of us remain silent – keeping our presumed ignorance to ourselves – lest we offend?

      I inadvertedly opened this can of worms and it seems I handled it clumsily – but it seems I have been somewhere a little like it before a long time ago. 😐

      • You make some excellent points. And you’ve stirred up a great deal of thought and discussion–never a bad thing.

  9. Mark, the point was you called a deranged woman a ‘feminist’ which was not necessarily true and links her abusive behaviour with a cause of women. Could she not just be a deranged woman? I do not recognise her behaviour as feminism. My point is that we make the ‘bad women’ the voice piece for all women in a way we would never do to men.

    Scarlet, I see your point and I hope you are right but recently that have been several laws passed in the US that would have made women (and men) in the UK jump up and down with rage. The disrespect shown by some American politicians to woman (including that young woman that spoke up regards contraception in Congress/ Senate- unsure which- and was vilified beyond anything that could be considered acceptable) is disturbing to say the least. Thank goodness for Obama.

    • 20 Mark

      I probably shouldn’t, but I’ll try again. My original post referred to “the man hating self described feminist.” That is not all feminists, and I was trying to point at one specific problem. It seems my attempt to be specific was insufficient.

      I have a wife who works and a daughter in college, and would never want either to be treated in the way women too often were in the too recent past. Feminism has brought great things to women. Their husbands and fathers benefit from this too; when the world lets them be fully themselves it is more fun to be part of their lives.

      My wife and I enjoy things that are nobody else’s business. The “all men are rapists” extremism happens. Those women would seek to judge other women, and limit their freedom, and try to make them feel bad for doing as they like, to include doing as we like. That is where my story took off from this topic. They can make me feel bad too, not only my wife. The reactions can be surprising in the most unexpected situations where we think our fun is our own business.

      There exist those who proclaim their right to define feminism, and do so as blinkered, narrow minded self described monitors of what other women should think and feel, “doing it for their own good”, and self righteous about it. Of course their venom towards a top is even more pronounced. It complicates enjoying our own thing, and somewhat limits our freedom, and is annoying.

      My daughter tells me campus still features the “women need men like a fish needs a bicycle” version of extremism that was on T-shirts in my campus days, and that some of them actively bother her more than any remaining vestiges on campus of male chauvinism. She wants both a job and a family, with a better balance than we had in our time, she expects fair treatment, and I hope and believe she’ll manage it.

      • 21 DJ

        There is a shop in Camden market that sells such T-shirts – I think it is supposed to be ironic. Perhaps that is where some are coming from with this.

        Incidentally Toby Fish my neighbour is looking to but a bicycle. 😉

  10. Poppy, i love how much you know and care about what’s happening to and about women in the U.S. Rush Limbaugh, the man who called Sandra Fluke a slut, is a mean-spirited, hate-encouraging, pathetic excuse for a political commentator who does this kind of thing for his core audience of cretins. He does, quite sadly, have a role in our political discourse.

    I am so disheartened by the state of American politics today. So many of us hoped for a better country led by Obama, but instead of bringing disparate groups together, today they are more polarized than ever. We are so very different state by state, though, so choosing where in the country to live does make a difference.

  11. If we narrow the discussion to abortion, then that alone is HUGELY controversial in the U.S. And yes, many of us are alarmed and horrified by the push backwards that is being felt across the country. Women of means can travel to another state for the kind of care they want; women who most need abortions due to illness, poverty or substance abuse often cannot.

    Can most thinking people agree that these issues should be left between a woman and her doctor? Sadly, I don’t hold out much hope for that happening anytime in the near future.

    • 24 Christian

      While we were engaged my late wife once got very jealous after a night where we had been with one of her girlfriends and I had shown a bit too much interest in her. So when we got to our apartment and invited our friend inside, she suddenly got very jealous and started slapping my face many times. I told her to stop immediately, and when she did it again I pulled her over my knees, bared her bottom and gave her a real spanking that made her scream, cry and sob. After the spanking she was more than willing to be cuddled and comforted, and our friend who had witnessed her girlfriend’s comeuppance tooh her leave and wished all the best for us. My wife and I made passionately love and fell asleep in each other’s arms. That was one example where a non-consensual spanking had a very good effect, and I repeated it a few times after we got married, but only as a last resort when she got completely unreasonable. The next day we me in a cafe with her girlfriend, and she convinced my wife that there had been absolutelky nothing between us – and added that she deserved the spanking for thinking se would do that. So All’swell that ends well, and though she had a sore end for a few days, it was really a good end for all three of us – and mywife later confessed that she had deserved the spaking.

  12. Scarlet, there are so many intrusions into the lives of American women that I picked abortion as easy to sum up. Some parties seem intent on intruding as much as possible into the lives of women while accusing more moderate parties of trying to create a nanny state. It makes no sense to me.
    I think you are right about the poor women bearing the brunt of these changes.
    I am bewildered by it all- I cannot begin to imagine how you feel.

  13. 26 Ayla

    The last line in your post,DJ, was “laugh out loud” funny–and I am still laughing, even after reading all these comments & despite living on the wrong side of the pond. As I’ve already told you, I continue as a frustrated alpha female looking for an alpha male spanker/mentor to my standards going on 30 years now without success. I am a dominant woman, highly professional in several fields, able to hold my own among high-powered men on the job & with feminist (personal & political) “street cred”going back to the University of California Berkeley in the 1970s– I was considered the most radical woman there because I just lived it like the job was already done. If I can manage to save up the airfare, can I throw a sleeping bag on your floor for a few days? You are a very classy gentleman & one in many millions. And even pro-Doms (my “Hail Mary” new career choice) get lonely. (I will let that last line stand as my comment on the USA economic/political situation.)

    • 27 DJ

      I am glad you found it funny – maybe we should have left it there Lol

      And thanks for the compliment. 😉

      DJ

  14. 28 Brigit

    Actually, I have not read the comments, so please forgive me if it’s already said but when I read this kind of argumentation, I have to say one single evidence :

    there is a big difference between male domination in the social world and male domination in sexe. and this is the big mistake that people do, unfortunately very commonly. sexual rights (having a sex life the way you want in the boundaries of law of course) are different from women rights in the social life, althoug some part of both are common.

    many feminist people have argue about this, together with philosophers. but as an easy cliche is always winning upon disturbing information, the idea is still much alive.

    when the guy in the forum was discussing as “pro male” activist, it was most probably about male domination in the social world and as this rules the wold (or so it is said) male domination is therefore obvious in the sex relation too: the women are supposed to be passive (sub) and the male active (top). It is even referred to as “natural”, by reference to rules of nature.

    BUT this has little to do with the fact a women has a dominant or submissive sexuality.

    and this is a big but (not butt) being passive (as instructed by education and social tabou) and being submissive is not the same thing at all.

    (and talking about the “nature” or nutural rules would take us far, so forgive me if I do not enter into it)

    this is where I agree with you. it takes strong women to go against education and social tabou, and assume to be submissive to a men or a woman.

    and moreover, it also take strong men to do the same and be submissive to dominant man ore woman.

    this is, to a certain extent, not a question of gender, although I fully recognize that some people would never submitt to the same sex dominant and reciprocally.

    so mixing sexual rights with the feminism debate, war, women rights or whatever you call it is the mistake.

    to refocus on spanking, spanking is a kind of fetishism that relates to authority, control, mentoring. once again, gender is not the issue.

    • 29 DJ

      Thank you

      I think you are right – politics and sexuality rarely mix and one does not inform the other.

      It is just that I have found that some men and women agonise over this and sometimes come to the conclusion that the whole dom/sub thing is wrong as it is politically and socially unsustainable.

      Whereas what you are saying (I think) is that if a women PM is spanked by her husband and likes it – who cares and what has this to do with her job? I agree. 🙂


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